This is the Coffee House Wall for this week. I won’t say that it is your chance to communicate with us, as we are all in this together. It is, nevertheless, the Conservative Blog post that has no particular theme, and where everything is on topic. Let’s just remember that we want to avoid ad hominem attacks on others. We don’t want to engage with trolls. We want to moderate our language ourselves as responsible and mature adults, choosing to use fruity language only where it is necessary. This is our opportunity to show what the Spectator Coffee House Wall could have been like.
Please consider supporting the Coffee House Wall by making a donation of whatever amount, to fund the running of the site using the Paypal donation button provided.
Your support is needed, without it the Coffee House Wall can’t function. Please consider a donation of even just £5.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11173102/Christian-school-downgraded-for-failing-to-invite-an-imam-to-lead-assembly.html
Are we happy about this? Seems to me that it’s OFSTED inspectors who need an upgrading.
Ostrich (occasionally) October 20th, 2014 – 10:26
“http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11173102/Christian-school-downgraded-for-failing-to-invite-an-imam-to-lead-assembly.html
Are we happy about this? Seems to me that it’s OFSTED inspectors who need an upgrading.”
I have just followed the link and read the report, if true, and I do not doubt this, then we are in la la land, Ofsted need a cracker up their jacksy.
Not happy, but not unexpected.
They will turn anything on its head to avoid the real issue.
OFSTED is not fit for purpose, though it is fit for Common Purpose!
A local Catholic primary school is marked down because the teachers teach and do not allow the children to educate themselves as and when and if they want! The teachers insist on spending too much time with the children paying attention and being taught!
All of my four children attended the same local primary school. I never allowed any of them to visit either a Hindu temple or a Muslim mosque.
Re: Elgin Marbles / Normandy from last weeks Wall
By 1086, the year the Doomsday Book was published, 90% of all English land had been “acquired” by the Normans and I’ve read that even today 70% of that land remains in the hands of the same families. So who does it really belong to?
Being subject to the rule of foreigners in ones own land has been and is a terrible thing, though it brings to mind a story from the EU which actually made me smile – some years ago a committee of the EU was discussing regulation of apple orchards and the chairman nursing everyone over some small obstacle ended by saying, “Mais, ce petit problème sera resolu par la sagesse Normande.” which to the welcome amusement of the English delegates was translated as, “But this little problem will be resolved by Norman Wisdom.”
Noa – 10:49 ‘
“But if we (as individuals or a nation), acquired land in Poland, how would we be able to protect it?”
The land would be ‘protected’ by the Army that ‘acquired’ it. The Polish Army would have been defeated.
The REAL face of King Tut: Pharaoh had girlish hips, a club foot and buck teeth according to ‘virtual autopsy’ that also revealed his parents were brother and sister
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2799418/king-tut-girlish-hips-club-foot-buck-teeth-according-virtual-autopsy.html
So, even worse than Bradford!
After the fire at Didcot power station last night:
Didcot fire raises risk of winter blackouts and soaring prices
One more unexpected interruption to power supplies could cause a “serious” shortage and soaring prices, expert warns
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/11173723/Didcot-fire-raises-risk-of-winter-blackouts-and-soaring-prices.html
which looks like increasing the risk of power cuts, it is very prescient of Owen Paterson to have said this during the Today programme on Radio 4, last Thursday:
Owen Paterson: current UK energy policies “will not keep the lights on”
https://sites.google.com/site/mytranscriptbox/2014/20141016_op
Ukip is the only hope against the liberal aristocracy. But there are worrying indications that Ukip is trying to make itself acceptable to liberal opinion.
Diane James is pathetic as evidenced by her performance against leftie bigots on Question Time. She seemed embarassed to represent Ukip. Even Nigel Farage is now censoring himself to the point of shiftiness as in his answers to Panorama journalists.
There’s a pretty good post analysing his reaction to leftie Panorama
journalists called”Tell It Like It Is…” at:
http://john-moloney.blogspot.com/2014/10/tell-it-as-it-is-and-walk-toward-fire.html
The bad news is that there were no Mustards in England before 1066.
The good news is that we no longer own the land we stole then. It was stolen from us. . .
But nowadays a Mustard will tell you that he is English rather than Norman. The Normans originated from the Norse as did many English, but the question of how England might have fared had Duke William failed is a fascinating one to ponder.
Unfortunately the family has always been more Norman Wisdom than Norman wisdom.
Building up a head of steam of indignation after watching on several different media this morning Barroso’s lecturing (and threats) about the UK aversion to the EU ‘project’, and building up a head of steam, I was delighted to discover, when I dipped into Alex Boot’s blog, that he had performed a deeply satisfying hatchet job on the ugly little Maoist dago in his latest post. If you have not already done so, please click over and read it. You will not be disappointed.
If I could cut and paste on this bloody ‘tablet’ I would provide a taster, but I can’t – and as my PC is sulking and awaiting a visit from my local techie for deep investigation and stern castigation, I can only urge you to read it all.
In the meantime, if any of you genned up cyber-swanks know how to c & p on a Nexus 7, I will be eternally grateful if you could please advise me (in simple plain language, if that’s possible, as my powers of concentration are diminishing, by the minute – and exponentially).
Colonel Mustard (14:21)
I understand the Albanians were very fond of Norman Wisdom; does that help in anyway, when cogitating on the matter of fluctuating conquest and counter conquest within the families, tribes and nations of Europe?
stephen, the tomorrow’s lunch’s off, only few minutes ago Baron’s been told he wasn’t ready yet to rejoin the civilisation, or whatever remains of it. Not in those words, of course, but the meaning was the same. The barbarian apologises very much, will let you know when the time comes for to meet we must.
Yes, the nights are drawing in and it’s time for the Fifth Annual ‘WBGTDWI?’ Shout-Out
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2010/10/the-ginger-rodent/
David B: Nick Clegg is a closet Tory (nice homophobic overtone there)
Frank P:
David B
It is revealing that when ‘closet’ is mentioned then you associate it with homosexuality – nay homophobia. Is that perhaps an indication of your own proclivities?
I always understood that if someone is described as a closet anything, then it is implied that that they are pretending to be something else. What’s buggery got to do with it?
An intriguingly difficult dispute to fix it is, that of the ownership of the few chiselled stones known as Elgin Marbles. It feels as if it cannot be solved without one or the other party to it getting hurt. The legal profession is divided, so is public opinion, but from purely practical considerations perhaps the current status is the best solution, on the basis that the stones are well looked after, accessible to everyone, hence no change in the place of their keep is necessary.
‘the few chiselled stones known as Elgin Marbles’
What is this nonsense about chiseled stones, Baron? As you will see with your own eyes if you visit the British Museum, the Elgin Marbles are a tetrahedron of marble spheres with which the Greeks played their version of ‘marbles’, although in terms of size, they are closer to the bowls with which Sir Francis Drake played bowls.
You should come to London some time and soak up the culture. For example, very few people seem to know that the ‘Bloody Tower’ at the Tower of London is so-called because it was used to incarcerate enemies of the bleeding realm.
Baron,
Don’t worry about tomorrow, I had a bit of a tumble myself last week and am a bit shaky. The main thing is that you get well, there is plenty of time. Best wishes
Re Elgin
It is quite clear
Their presence in Bloomsbury is another example of rape and pillage by our aristocratic Empire forbears
*
Cultural treasures from ancient civilisations belong in the places they come from. Museums in Sweden, Germany, America and the Vatican have already acknowledged this and returned items taken from the Acropolis. The British museum should follow suit and put an end to more than two centuries of bad feeling in Greece.
Since 1975 Greece has been carefully restoring the Acropolis. Athens now undoubtedly has the facilities to look after the sculptures properly – the specially designed New Acropolis Museum would display the marbles exactly as they appeared on the original temple.
The marbles have suffered considerable damage while in London. In the 19th century, pollution seriously harmed the sculptures and the British Museum’s attempts to clean them, using sandpaper, chisels and acid, also caused irreparable damage.
It is still doubtful whether Lord Elgin was ever truly granted permission to take the marbles. The existing English translation of the 1801 document supposedly signed by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire has often been denounced as a fake. Furthermore, even if it is genuine, the royal decree gives permission mainly “to examine and view, and also to copy the figures remaining there”. So it is unlikely that the Sultan ever thought that Elgin would actually remove entire frescos and sculptures.
– See more at: http://www.elginism.com/elgin-marbles/arguments-for-against-the-return-of-the-elgin-marbles/20090214/1733/#sthash.mLAleJvF.dpuf
Peter from Maidstone October 20th, 2014 – 11:11
“All of my four children attended the same local primary school. I never allowed any of them to visit either a Hindu temple or a Muslim mosque.”
I am 50% with you on this, I have no interest in seeing the inside of a mosque as I have no interest whatsoever in Muslims their culture or their religion, other than ridding these Islands of them.
However, once whilst visiting Singapore our guide took us into a Hindu temple also a Sikh temple and a Chinese temple where the ancestors were venerated, experiences that I would not have missed.
The one that impressed me most was the Hindu temple it was very colourful and extremely busy, with a wedding going on in one corner, whilst prayers for the dead were going on in another we were made most welcome.
Andy Car Park (15:08/15/47)
Did you keep the placard that you paraded with outside the cottages of Piccadilly Circus and adjacent rookeries, back in the beginning of this serial piss-take?
Tell you what! Come next anniversary of the WBGTDWI Association, why don’t you parade with it, at noon, outside the British Museum and we’ll all join you; then after a quick shufti at the Elgin rocks, to shore up Baron’s appreciation of our heritage and restore our cultural clarity, we can repair to the museum tavern for a pint of Old Peculiar to wash down a plate of Brakes Bros pre-cooked and re-heated Fish ‘n’ Chips followed by Treacle Tart and Custard – now here’s a cultural gem for you.
As for Sir Francis: no questioning the size of his bowls – even though he did delay the repulsion of the spicks until he had finished fondling them. No onanist, I’m sure; it was probably his way of mediating whilst perfecting his strategy. Some say, of course that the alleged victory was classic spin and in fact it was cock-up of gigantic proportions with horrendous fatalities and only the weather redeemed it. Depends on the politics of the historians, no doubt; choose your version.
Anyway, it seems that today’s sorry top-jolly-jack-tars have peanuts in comparison. Even a Falkland hero like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_West,_Baron_West_of_Spithead
who later slid safely into the socialist sector of the red benched sinecure and watched the deliberate depletion of our fleet with nary a squeak. “I’m alright jack – pull up the ladder”, perhaps? Sad, considering he was reportedly last off HMS Ardent before she sank.
Mind you – considering the battle cry of the matelots of yesteryear, about to embark on shore leave: “Onward to rum, bum and big-titted tarts!” the annual question still has to be answered.
In this case, it would no doubt be, “Any port in a storm, shipmate!”
Colonel Mustard (14:21)
As your old ancestor Jeremiah is once reported to have said, “It’s not what they ate, but what they left on the plate that made me my fortune.”
“Cultural treasures from ancient civilisations belong in the places they come from.” declares Telemachus. Really?
I should have thought that cultural treasures from any ancient civilisation deserve to be protected by any later civilisation. If it possible to acquire worthwhile artefacts from an earlier civilisation and transport them to some other civilised part of the world, it is fully justified to do it. They should not be left in place, open to being vandalised by barbarians. Think of the wicked destruction, perpetrated by Muslims in Afghanistan, of the standing Buddhas of Bamiyan.
Remember too that the Elgin artefacts were acquired from a place that was subject to Islamic rule – in other words there was no guarantee that they would be allowed to continue to exist and more than the Buddhas of Bamiyan would be allowed to continue to exist.
As for returning them now to Greece, Peter (October 19th, 2014 – 13:36) made the valid point that he’d rather see them in the British Museum where they are properly looked after – and that had they remained in Athens they would no longer exist, and if they are returned they will be sold to the Chinese.
Not that being sold to the Chinese is a bad thing in itself: China has very deep respect for the past and I have no doubt that they would give the Elgin marbles meticulous care.
We might also keep in mind that sale of the Elgin Marbles by Britain is not necessarily impossible, nor is it a guarantee that they will always be safe there. Once there is a Muslim majority in Britain, the Elgin Marbles may well suffer the same fate as the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
In the meantime however, we should give thanks that selling them did not (so far as we know) occur to Gordon Brown. Judging by the absurdly low price at which he sold the country’s gold, he would have sold the Elgin Marbles off cheaply too.
Sorry about paragraph 3. –
‘..and more..’ should have read – ‘..any more..’
‘..would be allowed..’ should have read ‘..were allowed..’ .
There is something called iTunes by which music can be purchased.Reportedly at number 23 on their play list is UKIP Calypso by The Independents.
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/ukip-calypso-single/id928438196
telemachus @ 18:32
Only two points on your PC solution to the Marbles. The Greeks should be thankful to us for salvaging them as the Turks (as well as the local Greek builders) used them in their lime kilns. Had it not been for the good Lord, who knows, all the Greeks would have today is the in-between brake filler from the house walls.
The other is the Marbles were bought from Lord Elgin by the Parliament way back at the beginning of the 19th century, which would suggest those doing the deal must have ensured he had obtained them legitimately. The Governments then didn’t do dodgy deals, your questioning the authenticity of the original documents isn’t in any way justified.
Radford NG @ 22:29
You’ve saved Baron a posting, Radford, even the Guardian has it on its on-line edition.
There have been dirty deeds in the European Parliament.On Thursday UKIP lost it’s position as part of an official grouping (which gave it right to funding,Chairman positions on committees and speaking privileges):but today it is back.
Last week the `President`managed to seduce the Latvian MEP away from the group,reducing it’s numbers below the necessary MEPs from seven different countries to qualify.Today they have been joined by a Pole and are back in business.
The make-up of the European Freedom & Direct Democracy Group has;UKIP 24/Italian 5 Star Movement 17/Swedish Democrats 2/one each from France,Czech Republic,Lithuania and Poland.
http://www.efdgroup.eu/news/press-releases/item/efd-group-back-with-a-bang-normal-transmission-resumed
Frank @ ACP
A brilliant idea, the trawl through the gems of British history, even if it’s confined just to the big village of London, and the sooner done the better, the progressives cum the new colonisers may soon get rid of it all, the places you suggest smell too much of the barbaric past.
What puzzles is the exclusion of the Tower in the itinerary, Frank, Andy seems keen on it. Is it because the participants in the sojourn could no longer gain a free entry by bringing in few cats to feed the lions? Are there any lions left to feed these days, ACP?
Above should be:
http://www.efdgroup.eu/news/press-releases/item/efdd-group-back-with-a-bang-normal-transmission-resumed
stephen maybery @ 16:16
You get better, stephen, by the feel of things you need it. Baron’s only malady (currently) is his body temperature, it sinks to below 35C with no adverse effect whatever, but the medical profession is confused by it, hence it insist keeping the barbarian under observation. Silly really.
Mike Read sings `UKIP Calypso`[& idiot corps cry that it’s racist]:
“Oh yes,when we take charge and the new Prime Minister is Farage/We can trade with the world again,when Nigel is at Number Ten
A must listen,it can be heard at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xLbcIianBg
Culture belongs to those who grapple it to their soul with hoops of steel.
That said, here is something other than the nation’s refusal to release its hold on the Parthenon Marbles which demonstrates that there is something else alive and well in the land.
This clip, with sound up, should be projected on to the exterior walls of of every mosque in our islamic provinces – and may it give you all a happy start to your Tuesday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa2vzx-aNrw
Meanwhile, in the USA (or North American Union as we should call it) the British are coming! the British are coming! and there is at last something constructive for the National Guard to do:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/10/18/Bikini-Models-Sneak-onto-National-Guard-Site-for-Photo-Shoot
There comes a moment in time when the words of Theodore Roethke are clearly understood:
http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/inverse/the_waking_by_theodore_ro.php
Thank you Mr Vanderleun for drawing attention to them and for the fitting illustration.
The last and penultimate post on Sultan Knish blog are well worthy of your attention:
http://sultanknish.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/the-savage-lands-of-islam.html
&
http://sultanknish.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/the-progressive-pajama-boy-era-is-over.html
The first is a primer on the roots of our current problems with Islam; the second is a write-off of the Obama phenomenon. Both seminal essays.
Baron
You may be right
But now we have saved them why not be magnanimous and return them
The Greeks have been badly used by the Germans in the forties, the Colonels in the seventies and the whole of Europe in recent months and years
*
They deserve a break
Malfleur
October 21st, 2014 – 00:20
That was wonderful.
Baron.
Thanks for your good wishes, and mine to you. I went over last week, it could have been serious as I nearly ended up under a car, of course there was a funny side to things, there always is with me. However two young lads picked me up, the trouble is I am getting into the habit of being picked up by young lads on Whitechapel Road, I think I may be getting a reputation.
Despite the ‘support’ of the Comrade providing a near fatal weakening of the case for return of the Elgin marbles I remain of the opinion that they rightfully belong to Greece, which is perfectly capable of cherishing its heritage.
As Herbert Thornton will no doubt concur and acknowledges, albeit circumspectly, it is not necessarily the taking of property which constitutes theft; it is the intention to permanently deprive the owner of his belongings.
All this blather about the Elgin Marbles is giving me the s…s. The French also have samples of sculptures from the Parthenon, I do not recall the Greeks shouting for the Louvre to disgorge them, for the simple reason they know perfectly well what the French would say, and it would not be said politely. Incidentally, the Louvre is bursting with artefacts looted by Napoleon, but the French, far more sensible than we are, do not get their knickers in a twist over such matters. As Disreali so rightly said “There is a type of Englishman who loves every nation except his own”.
Stephen
As you aver, you may be getting a reputation; from your love of all things Greek to your being habitually picked up by young lads in Whitechapel. 😉
As for what the French do, say or think, what has that to do with an Englishman’s values, morals and standards!
“There is a type of Englishman who loves every nation except his own”.
*
The most perfect description I have seen to date of a UKIP voter
The Bilderberg list, so far, of enemies of the country:
Ed Balls
Boris Johnson; and,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11176177/Ken-Clarke-Immigration-cap-would-put-economy-at-risk.html
Kenneth Clarke
I have just visited the site and telemachus’ really very pointless post was sitting there waiting to be moderated. I nearly just deleted it because it is so stupid. But if wishes to expose himself in such a way then I suppose I should let him. It doesn’t even count as trolling!
Noa (October 21 @ 08:29)
Yes, I concur but only up to a point because the meaning of “theft” varies from county to country.
I don’t know what the current definition of theft is in Britain, but as this site illustrates, the situation used to be that a thing was not stolen unless (among other things) it was “capable of being stolen” – and moreover was taken without “claim of right made in good faith”. –
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/Steal.aspx
PfM 21st, – 09:56
“telemachus’ really very pointless post was sitting there waiting to be moderated. I nearly just deleted it because it is so stupid.”
Very 1984, indeed!
If I may, the element missing from the debate about theft is that in addition to the intention to permanently deprive the “thief” must appropriate or exercise control over the goods dishonestly. In other words his motivation must contain a guilty intent – mens rea. There is no way from the circumstances known that guilty intent can be ascribed to Lord Elgin.
So the question of rightful ownership arises not from Lord Elgin’s acquisition but from whether the Turkish regime who permitted that acquisition had the right to do so. This is being lost in the self-flagellating clamour to make amends for our past but is in any case a highly complex issue around how much responsibility modern Turkey should take for the behaviour of their former governments and whether modern Greece has a legitimate right of identity to Ancient Greece, a conglomerate of city states rather than a ‘nation’ in the modern sense. One could argue that Turkey “stole” the marbles by exercising a right of ownership in permitting Lord Elgin to remove them but again there is an absence of dishonest intent.
So the debate about the marbles is more one of historic legacy and abstract morality about where they should belong, not helped by accusations of theft or stealing.
As an aside the concept of mens rea in English law practice is being rapidly undermined in favour of the subjective. In other words what matters is not what is intended but how the “victim” feels about it. The danger of that should be bleedin’ obvious to those who rule over us but apparently isn’t.
I’m not convinced that mens rea has any application in the debate and I’m of the view that Lord Elgin acted ethically by his own lights and had no belief that he was ‘stealing’. Indeed my original post on the matter alluded to the rightful ability or otherwise, of the Ottoman empire to sell the property of an occupied country. The law does provide some practical guidance on how the matter may be viewed but this is ultimately inconclusive, witness the acquisition of title of stolen goods by sale in ‘market overt’. Even if Lord Elgin did not obtain good title by English standards the British Museum did. These are ultimstely legalisms, the key question concerns the continued possession of the Marbles by the British Museum.
One of the most common arguments I read can be summarised as “They are ours, we should keep them by our right of possession. That is the end of the discussion”. So the intention to permanently deprive is formed and held by people who were not part of the original transaction, legal or otherwise. Another is that we are better placed to care for them than Greece. The former argument is relatively immoral, the latter is incorrect, patronising and offensive.
Malfleur @ 00:20
Excellent find, Malfleur, she isn’t only good looking and articulate, and the music’s sublime, too.
This is not supported by any other source, Baron’s got it from an American friend of his.
http://ulstermanbooks.com/d-c-whispers-barack-obamas-outraged-tantrum-military-briefing/
The logic behind this two sentence posting beats the barbarian, telemachus. Would you care to explain?
Ostrich, where telemachus is concerned I do not believe there are any issues of free speech to be taken into account.
Mens rea is absolutely applicable when the words ‘steal’ and ‘theft’ are being used. Those words appeared in the debate and were in turn debated before my intervention about mens rea.
“They are ours, we should keep them by our right of possession. That is the end of the discussion”.
Still no dishonest intent apparent in that assertion. In fact one of the ancient defences to the accusation of theft is that the ‘thief’ believes he has a right of possession. The only way it can be tested is in court.
Frank P @ 01:57
The essay on Islam is perfectly balanced, well argued, and utterly convincing. What puzzles is why the political class of the West hasn’t yet figured what the badly educated hoi polloi began to get years ago.
Who should be put in the dock?
As Lord Elgin is long deceased his mens rea is irrelevant. The British Museum, acting as trustee for the public, has subsequently acquired good title. The public believes it is right to keep what another acquired, legally or otherwise, primarily on the bais of the passage of time.
So, the question remains, if A stole the marbles from B, and sold them to C, who then gave them to D, to whom do they rightfully belong, B, C or D?
I contend it is B and as with the theft of Britain by Normandy, be damned to the passage of time.
Noa,
Now do not be nasty to the French, look at what we owe to them. For a start, there is their cuisine, which improved immeasurably after Marie de Medici’s chefs taught them how to cook.Then there is their wine, Ok God put down the soil and the Romans planted the first vines, but their architecture, who could ignore the Maginot Line? We must not turn our backs on them for if we did, then who would take any notice of the sods?
stephen maybery – 14:34
“… who could ignore the Maginot Line?”
Wasn’t it the Germans?
From the circumstance it is apparent that Lord Elgin had no mens rea so reverting back to a proposition that the marbles were stolen is invalid because it implies that he did.
Also, the proposition that the modern Greek nation is synonymous with Ancient Greece is problematic. If that precedent is accepted then all issues relating to the State of Israel and Palestine should cease.
I would like to see the ancient Kingdom of Kent reconstituted, since it was stolen from us by the men of Wessex. But to be honest the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Kent was stolen by Hengist and Horsa from the Cantiaci. So who owns what? Athens is only part of modern Greece through the same convolutions of history.
Colonel Mustard October 21st, 2014 – 15:16
“Also, the proposition that the modern Greek nation is synonymous with Ancient Greece is problematic. If that precedent is accepted then all issues relating to the State of Israel and Palestine should cease.”
And all of the New World, North South, and Central America.
“From the circumstance it is apparent that Lord Elgin had no mens rea so reverting back to a proposition that the marbles were stolen is invalid because it implies that he did.”
Which ignores the proposition that he could not rightfully acquire the marbles because the Turks had no right to sell them. The Ottomans were an occupying force, the sale of the Marbles from out of the hands of the Athenians was done under duress.
Any contract entered into under duress is null and void.
Therefore the continued retention of the Marbles is not legal and legal ownership does not reside with the British Museum.
And which would also, under common law, have made him guilty of handling stolen goods.
And does the modern government of Greece have locus standii in the matter? Well, if not it, then who?
And on the same precedent, all issues relating to Eire and Northern Ireland should also cease.
Greece was occupied by the Turks in the 15th or even 14th century. We may deplore it but it seems to me after 300 years that an invading force have acquired some rights by conquest? Otherwise almost all world history becomes one great crime scene that is unresolvable.
I seem to think the Athenians got the money to build the Parthenon by fraud or threat in the first place through forming a defence league and then misappropriating the funds.
Amongst other ‘might is right’ arguments:-
“…And all of the New World, North South, and Central America.”
So there can be no objection to the influx of Mexican ‘immigrants’ to the US reclaiming their ‘native’ lands?
And of course, in the matter of who owns what, it was only a few weeks ago that the UK avoided further dismemberment by the skin of Lord Barnett’s teeth.
I don’t think I said “might is right”. I said that after 300 years of conquest some rights are acquired de facto. And if not then all of world history become irresolvable.
Peter from Maidstone
Firstly I am so grateful
Secondly you will find that Vortigern invited in Hengist
And then gave him much of Kent in gratitude for his help against the Picts and Scots and a variety of Barbarians
Subsequently, in fact according to Gildas in 442AD, Hengest with the greater number of Saxons he invited over attacked the rest of us from his country of Kent and
Britain “passed into the control of the Saxons”
I would say that the rest of us should seek retribution from Canturguoralen (Kent)
Noa
Did Normandy thieve Britain
Or was it in truth the final victory of the Vikings (Northmen/Normans) over the Saxons who drove out the last true Briton, Vortigern
*
I should also add that I agree with Nicholas, back I see from his flounce, that we cannot equate Ancient Greece and modern Greece
However Elgin stole the marbles from modern Greece then laid low by the Turks
Peter
“…I said that after 300 years of conquest some rights are acquired de facto. And if not then all of world history become irresolvable.”
Would you then accept the legitimacy of the present Greek government to ask for the return of the marbles? Or must they wait until 2132 before they could make such a request?
Vortigern was not King of Kent. He was Overking of the British. He gave Thanet to Hengist but Hengist wanted much, much more and a battle was fought at Aylesford to try to hold them back. The British lost. There were already Saxons up and down the East coast, invited in as mercenaries over the previous 100 years.
There was no state of Greece prior to the Muslim invasion. It was the Roman Empire. Is the current heir of the throne of Constantinople the rightful owner? I’d say not since Athens had itself been captured by the Romans before Christ. It’s been over 2000 years since there was a Greece. And before that? Athens was a state itself.
Radford NG – 16:33
“I seem to think the Athenians got the money to build the Parthenon by fraud or threat in the first place through forming a defence league and then misappropriating the funds.”
And so modern democracy was borne.
Much of this discussion about the Elgin Marbles seems to be based on the idea that the law about individuals’ property rights (and in particular the law about theft) can be properly assumed to apply also between nations as a matter of Public International Law. That idea is unrealistic and very much mistaken.
Laughably – like a parrot that just reproduces the sounds of words without the slightest idea of what their meaning is – Telemachus keeps squawking that Elgin “stole” the marbles.
Peter
So you are arguing that Greece has no locus standii in the matter of the buildings which stood on its territory prior to its coming into existance? To whom then, should questions on the matter of property be addressed, Turkey, as the legitimate succesor to the Ottoman empire?
No, I’m saying that it has no absolute right to be treated as the aggrieved party when the events it is aggrieved about took place before it existed. In the same way Argentina cannot claim the Falklands as it did not exist at the time it suggests its claim originates.
If we are going down the historical ownership route then I guess the legitimate authority will be the Athenian senate when it last sat. Otherwise we just have to accept that history complicates things and recognise that Britain also has a claim.
Noa
Forget all the debate and latin names
Points 4 & 6 of this American analysis are conclusive
*
1.The Marbles are an integral part of an existing cultural monument, the Parthenon, and architectural complex, the Acropolis.
2. The Marbles occupy a central position in the cultural heritage of Greece and are symbolic of the Greek people’s link with its own past.
3. The marbles were forcibly taken while Greece was under foreign occupation. The Greek people were not consulted about their removal. The dubious “permission” granted to Lord Elgin by the Ottoman occupying power did not, therefore, give him any valid legal title to the sculptures.
4. The Marbles fall within the definition drawn up by UNESCO on cultural property that should be returned to the country of origin. This definition excludes the vast majority of foreign antiquities now held by the British Museum.
5. In cooperation with UNESCO, the Greek government is sponsoring a construction and restoration program for the Acropolis and plans have been implemented for the building of an adjacent Acropolis Museum that will house the Marbles, carrying through on a program that would guarantee proper environmental protection for the sculptures.
6. Public opinion in Great Britain is overwhelmingly for the transfer of the Marbles back to Greece
The last free Government of Athens was in the 4th century before Alexander the Great, a Macedonian conquered everywhere and brought the independent city states to an end. After that the Elgin Marbles have always belonged to someone who stole them from the Athenians, in terms of Government. Would Alexander the Great have the right to sell them? Or the Romans when they conquered Greece in 146 BC? Or the Byzantines as the Romans in the East in the 4th century? Or indeed the Ottomans in the 15th century? Or the British when they acquired them? Or now the modern Greek state that is not the successor of the original owners either.
In terms of telemachus’ points. #3. If the Marbles were sold when Greece was illegally occupied, then Turkey remains illegally occupied and its Muslim and Turkish Government and population should leave so that the original inhabitants, those not killed by the Turks, can recover their ownership.
Peter from Maidstone
October 21st, 2014 – 17:04
The Aegelesthrep(Aylesford) battle which killed Horsa was not the definitive battle. That was in Crayford(Bexley) nearer London 2 years later
See The Anglo Saxon Chronicle
455:Her Hengest 7 Horsa fuhton wiþ Wyrtgeorne þam cyninge, in þære stowe þe is gecueden Agælesþrep, 7 his broþur Horsan man ofslog; 7 æfter þam Hengest feng to rice 7 Æsc his sunu.
457:Her Hengest 7 Æsc fuhton wiþ Brettas in þære stowe þe is gecueden Crecganford 7 þær ofslogon .iiiim. wera, 7 þa Brettas þa forleton Centlond 7 mid micle ege flugon to Lundenbyrg.
telemachus @ 17:49
Impressive stuff, telemachus, now in English, please.
The Wall is suddenly drumming up business for shysters??
Leave well enough alone!
The whole of the debating is impressive, and Frank hasn’t joined in yet, what a well of knowledge you all have, who would have thought it, Baron’s head spins just reading the stuff.
Is it true the majority of the British public is in favour of shipping the Marbles back?
Whilst you are arguing about the stones a home grown national treasure has had a go defining Britishness.
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/21/grayson-perry-tapestry-portrait-gallery
“Which ignores the proposition that he could not rightfully acquire the marbles because the Turks had no right to sell them. The Ottomans were an occupying force, the sale of the Marbles from out of the hands of the Athenians was done under duress.”
No, it doesn’t, because I addressed that proposition in a previous comment made at 11:50, of which this is part:-
“So the question of rightful ownership arises not from Lord Elgin’s acquisition but from whether the Turkish regime who permitted that acquisition had the right to do so.”
Greece as a nation did not exist before or during the Ottoman occupation. It was administered as part of the Eastern Roman Empire.
Baron.
considering the current state of education in this country I seriously doubt if that many of the inhabitants have ever heard of the marbles, let alone give a damn as to what happens to them, but isn’t that the aim of Common Purpose et al?
“…I addressed that proposition in a previous comment made at 11:50, of which this is part..”
And which I had already addressed in my original post:-
” The Elgin marbles should be returned to their rightful home in the Acropolis forthwith, with the grateful thanks of the British nation for their forced ‘loan’ from the thieving and barbaric Ottoman empire. I am sure most Britons would rather see them in their proper setting than under grey London skies.
In returning them Britain would show itself to be both correct and generous in its behaviour. We would make good our longstanding and genuine friendship with Greece, remind Turkey of its own poor behaviour and deprive the already insufferable and self satisfied Mrs Clooney of an as yet unearned and certainly an unjustified fee.”
And here we remain in the frontline trench, debate with heat but not light. And mischievous comrade loose, seeking to divide and conquer. No advocate he of property rights! All belongs to ‘the people’ eh?
And I regret that the discussion continues to revolve on the level of
“Can we have our ball back, (maybe with a please)?”
No, you can’t, because…”it’s not yours” “show me who owns it”, or “finders, keepers.”
I understand the BM’s refusal to return the marbles. An uncomfortable precedent would be set. If it was followed the great museums of Europe and the States would quickly empty. The Art and tourism industries would be decimated.
And yet, a great opportunity to re-invigorate the ossified and constricted art world has been missed.
In return for the Marbles Greece offered a revolving loan of Hellenic statuary and treasures. How could such an arrangement offer anything other than great benefits for either the British Museum or Greece or most importantly, for the patrons of the arts, both ordinary and cognoscenti, who care for and frequent the public galleries and museums of Western civilisation? Suddenly their access to great art would be expanded exponentially.
And perhaps that is the nub of the matter. Custodians of the arts are hoarders by nature, locking it away. In fact Art being funded from taxes its custodians are simply Quangocrats, preserving their positions, careers and empires. As so often the problem comes back to the dogmas and practice of Socialism.
Baron
October 21st, 2014 – 19:46
455 This year Hengist and Horsa fought Vortigern the king, in the place called Aegelesthrep, his brother Horsa was killed, and after that Hengist and Aesc received the kingdom
457 This year Hengist and Aesc fought the Britons in the place called Crecganford. There they killed four companies. The Britons gave up Kent, and in great fear fled to London.
“In return for the Marbles Greece offered a revolving loan of Hellenic statuary and treasures. How could such an arrangement offer anything other than great benefits for either the British Museum or Greece or most importantly, for the patrons of the arts, both ordinary and cognoscenti, who care for and frequent the public galleries and museums of Western civilisation?”
Agreed.
Baron
What all this tells is that Vortigern was a clever dick who thought he could stick one over on his fellow islanders by getting over a few Jutish mercenaries (3 ships worth)
Snag was the cunning devil Hengist brought over a few of his mates and Hounded Vortigern up to Snowden.
Thereby Hengist was the first of the wave of immigrants that made this country great
A few Vikings, Normans and Hanoverians followed
Then when we began to sink into torpor a few West Indians, Ugandan Asians, Indians, Pakistani and latterly East Europeans came over to restore our greatness
Hengist. Ahhhh! Wasn’t he the wheel maker [square ones] in Carry on Cleo?
We Wallsters may not be communicating much with each other this winter. Instead we will be wearing out our mittens and reading “A Christmas Carol’ by candlelight.
Dr North explains why and how it has happened, in masterly fashion.
http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85261
Nigel Farage speaks out to Jose: “Thank you, thank you, thank you…Jose”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63poBimnMV0
Is all this wrist bending over bad Britain and the Parthenon Marbles by some Wallsters an indication of how wet and wobbly UKIP is going to go as it draws nearer to power?
If you’re going to have the kingdom restored, you need a candidate for monarch: King Peter of Kent?
A very sad example of what happens when the culture of a country leads to the enactment of a so-called Charter of “Rights and Freedoms” and the organs of government bend over backwards to avoid infringing on them. Rigid application of mad, abstract ideas becomes more important than the protection of innocent peoples’ lives. –
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/martin-couture-rouleau-case-underscores-passport-seizure-dilemma-1.2807239
And afterwards, the media (or at least the CBC, Canada’s very own version of the BBC) attribute it not to official negligence, or to insane liberalism but to the existence of a “dilemma”!
Mark Steyn sums the prevailing culture up rather well in today’s National Post –
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/10/21/mark-steyn-conservatives-may-win-elections-but-liberals-have-been-winning-the-culture/
The Swiss have a referendum coming up next month on whether the Swiss Franc should be backed by gold. If the answer is “yes” it becomes the law of the land, the only way the law can be reversed is by another referendum.
The Swiss also have the right, nay the duty, to bear arms.
Switzerland is of course chock-a-block with fruitcakes and loonies.
So why did folks who criticised Labour and sacked Charles Clarke in 2006
*
Ministers have been criticised by the UK spending watchdog for failing to deport more foreign criminals.
The National Audit Office said the number of foreign prisoners had gone up despite a near tenfold increase in officials working on their cases.
There are 12,250 foreign offenders in the UK and the government spent £850m last year on managing them.
The Home Office said recently enacted powers meant it was becoming easier to remove foreign offenders from the UK.
Your party bilged the ship, emptied the safe and tied the hands of the mariners, telemachus, so don’t complain now that the pumps can’t cope and there are no hands to bail. The present situation is entirely the responsibility and making of your party, its policies and its fellow travellers, who decided in the late 1960s that England was not good enough and should be destroyed.
Besides, you always talk of how the good people of this benighted country were in a “torpor” and have been “re-generated” by the recent mass influx of foreigners, which of course includes the 12,250 offenders you are now whining about and many more who have not been caught or who come and go.
Cameron should have declined to form a government in 2010 and let the ogre Brown continue to squat in No.10. It would have been painful but by now the shadow front bench would be hanging from lamp posts instead of rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of another decade of doublespeak, corruption, vandalism, rape, looting and pillage.
And lies of course. Let’s not forget the lies. From Greenham Common to Rotherham the lies to the left have it.
Colonel Mustard – 08:47 ‘Cameron should have declined to form a government’
But Cameron is a LibDem, so it was never to be.
Will the Government be able to find an independent chairman for the government inquiry into child sex abuse?
Every possible candidate appears to be related or living in the same street to a suspect:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2801621/chair-historic-child-abuse-inquiry-urged-quit-revelations-close-friend-tory-accused-failing-act-paedophile-allegations.html
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4798/austria-sharia-law
Too little, too late ,reading the statistics.
Family doctors in England are to be paid £55 every time they diagnose a case of dementia, NHS England has said.
NHS chiefs said the aim was to increase the number of sufferers who receive treatment for the condition, which causes a decline in brain function.
But the Patients Association called it “a step too far” that would mean a “bounty on the head” of some patients.
WELL THIS IS EASIER THAN HAVING A STRIKE, AND THE DOCTORS CAN HAVE A NICE MONTHLY BONUS. SHADES OF ‘BRAVE NEW WORLD’!
RobertC
October 22nd, 2014 – 10:18
Sadly,Robert , the whole damn Establishment, of all political colours, is filled with perverts and paedophiles. They are all bent. Watching “PMQ” which proves my point!
It was only yesterday that I posted links to the murder, by a Muslim convert, of a Canadian soldier in Canada and to Mark Steyn’s comments on Canada’s prevailing culture.
So imagine my feelings when this morning at breakfast at the news coming over the radio that there is gunfire in the Canadian House of Commons and that Prime Minister Stephen Harper has been rushed to a safe location.
Herbert, how on earth can you assume this has anything to do with the religion of peace
John Birch (22 Oct. @16:52) –
Actually, I’m finding it more and more difficult to distinguish between Islam, Political Correctness and Liberalism. Islam claims to be in favour of Peace and the other two agree that Islam is in favour of Peace – and make the same claim for themselves.
The only significant difference among them is that Islam regards the other two as useful idiots.
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/support-for-eu-membership-at-highest-level-for-23-years–eyRrppCdLg
The spin doctors have their looms at peak production. We could be doomed to an increasingly totalitarian EUSSR operating under the euphemistic title of Federal Europe. From my own soundings among acquaintances, friends – and even family, I infer that the brainwashing of the last 60 years has been comprehensive and effective – not only through the machinations academic thought factories that churned out most of the current incumbents of the corridors of power throughout what was once known as Western Civilisation, but also through the subliminal second-by-second propaganda disseminated through the main stream media and the multifaceted popular cultural artifices of modernity, which insist upon all races, nationalities, cults, cultures, religions and sexual practices, normal or depraved, as equal – and beyond censure or ostracism (which already the law proscribes).
The fact that this leaves our society vulnerable to infiltration and attack from any inimical internal minority or invading minority/majority that chooses to destroy our country or culture seems to have escaped a majority of the indigenes of these Islands. From proud and brave peoples, to compliant and cowardly sheeples, in two generations.
telemachus @ 21:49
Thanks for the translation, telemachus, the other account of what was happening close to the place Baron now lives way back when the Romans left. It may be, it must be, the glaring gap in the barbarian’s knowledge, but he always thought (he must have been taught it) that there was virtually no written record of the times when the Frisians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes or whoever began arriving here. The best we have, the most comprehensive account is the writings of the Northrumbrian monk, the Venerable Bede, in Latin and written almost three hundred years after the event (possible also few written remnants left by Alcuin of York?). The Romans and the Celts, who had been the masters here before, left little evidence of their presence (Avon, Thames are Celtic, correct?), and the endings -chester, -caster Romans, right?, but not any extensive written records remain. And the new invaders did no writing, they were not even Christians for St Augustine and his 40 helpers arrived in 597? Is Baron wrong here?
stephen maybery @ 20:37
It pains Baron to say it, stephen, you’re absolutely right. On the way back from the hospital today Baron had to wait for the car to arrive, the place was full of younger people – for Baron everyone below 60 counts as young, OK?. The barbarian got to talk to them, asked about what was wrong and stuff then tried to switch to politics. A mistake that, everyone had a view mostly of the sort ‘bastards, all of them’. To calm things down, Baron said ‘ and what do you think of the Elgin Marbles? Should we listen to the new wife of Clooney …. Nobody, not one of the present. knew about the stones, they knew alot about the wedding of the two, the dress she wore and things like that, but the marbles? Nope.
Do the unwashed really need saving from the evil politicians?
Noa @ 00:15
Three times Baron tried to watch the link, three times it didn’t work, an error message appeared, he was advised to try again later.
Nothing to do with your link, Noa, it feels though as if someone somewhere doesn’t want people to watch it.
Baron
Bede wrote a long time afterwards and copies much from the Anglo Saxon Chronicle
There are a number of more contemporaneous texts
I refer often to the Text of Nennius and that of Gildas the wise
The Gallic chronicle of 452 is good for the early Saxon raids
Geoffrey of Monmouth and William of Malmesbury cover the perion after the Romans left in 410 but many academics regard these writers as plagiarisms
Why I find this fascinating is the lack of documentation
But more exists than we know
I found a text in the Chain Library in Hereford that gave facts not in any of the above texts
*
If you are interested try the Vortigern Studies Homepage as a starter
John Birch (10:53)
Where’s Count Niklas Salm when he’s needed?
telemachus @ 08:12
Surprise, surprise, telemachus, you haven’t mentioned the main reason why it’s taking that long, and costs a fortunate.
Shall Baron tell you?
The fugging uman rites Act, that’s what. Most of the appeals are on that basis, and it seems one can appeal ad infinitum.
And who brought this legal construct alien to the centuries long tradition of British lawmaking? You know, or shall Baron also tell you?
Herbert Thornton @ 16:23
It may please you, Herbert, but in the afternoon news (Baron listened to it in a car) they did say ‘a convert to Islam’ when talking about the goings on in Canadian House of Commons.
Baron old chap you are talking about a rollicking good thing introduced by those who care
*
The Human Rights Act is a UK law passed in 1998. It means that you can defend your rights in the UK courts and that public organisations (including the Government, the Police and local councils) must treat everyone equally, with fairness, dignity and respect.
The Human Rights Act protects all of us – young and old, rich and poor. Hopefully you will never need to rely on it, but every year hundreds of people do.
The polymath indulges in a little alarming Adam Smithery:
http://alexanderboot.com/content/tories-are-running-out-bribery-money
Dunno where that leaves Ukippery. With an uphill and impossible struggle, perhaps?
Maybe they should keep their powder dry and follow the bailiffs in after the shit hits the fan?
Baron
The blatant ageism implicit in the first three words of Tele’s riposte @ 18:38 is entirely actionable. I suggest you use ECHR to deal with him.
… as he points out, you are entitled to being treated with ‘fairness, dignity and respect”.
As gun men run amok in Ottawa;Malala Yousafzac (the teen-age girl shot by the Taliban) is in Toronto due to have received Honorary Citizenship of Canada today.Maybe this has something to do with the attack.
The other Honorary Citizens of Canada are: Raoul Wallenberg;Mandela;the Dali Lama;Aung Suu Kyi;and the Aga Khan.
Radford NG
We do not yet know that these are not right wing extremists
Hold fire
From Breitbart:
Monica Lewinsky’s Disingenuous Self-Pity Is the Really Ugly Spectacle
1 person you follow joined this discussion:
Old Goat | Tuesday, Oct. 21st
Nice try, Monica, but on this occasion, no cigar.
Austin Barry replied | Tuesday, Oct. 21st
Monica is 41? Wow, it seems like only yesterday that she was crawling around on the floor of the Oval Office.
🙂 🙂
Multiple wedding from Enfield, in the UK. The brides wore white. I hope they are brides.
Frank P
October 22nd, 2014 – 19:02
iBarry replied | Tuesday, Oct. 21st
Monica is 41? Wow, it seems like only yesterday that she was crawling around on the floor of the Oval Office.
🙂 🙂
Sucking a dummy? 🙂
Canadian news at
http://www.globalnews.ca
Baron,
“Do the unwashed really?” need saving from the evil politicians?” No. they deserve each other. And as for some of the fatuous comments on the Marbles on this page, do not forget that history is nothing but the prejudices of the present interpreting the cock ups of the past.
Peter from Maidstone @ 19:45
Revealing picture, Peter. As Baron laid his eyes on it scrolling up the thread, his first thought was: ‘Death has visited upon the rainbow society, it must be some kind of a staged joked’.
They do look frightening, the white colour does nothing to prevent the image of a reaper popping up in one’s mind. Only the scythe is missing. Unfair, of course, as this was the happy moment for many, but the barbarian cannot help it.
telemachus @ 18:38
When the Bolsheviks took over Russia in 1917, they also said they cared, proclaimed the unwashed to be the owners of everything, brought in well meaning laws, introduced a Constitution guaranteeing the same rights the uman rites do.
When the Russian care experiment ended in around 1980, tens of millions were dead because of it.
Your lot just don’t learn, do they.
Frank P @ 18:46
You shouldn’t tempt the barbarian, Frank, he’s mad enough without it.
telemachus @ 18:38
And another thing, telemachus, why did we need the stuff, ha? Rumour has it, the ghastly Blair brought in in exchange for his wife permission to engage in politics on his own (she had designs, too, and is allegedly the brains in the family).
Still, one mustn’t believe in every conspiracy theory (unless one’s Malfleur) to reject the package wholesale.
When the critical time came last century, European institutions crumbled for they were not up to the job of preserving democracy, freedoms, the rule of law. It was Britain, and her institutions that stood up to the threat posed by a totalitarian doctrine (Nazism in Germany, fascism in Italy, Shinto in Japan), stopped its spread here, defeated it over there. The critical of those institutions was the third pillar of our governmental set-up – British law making.
It was the judiciary that stopped Mosley, it would have stopped anyone else, too, if he or she were to promote, push for, intimidate the unwashed with a societal construct inimical to the centuries old tradition of governance.
Who is in need of the uman rites package then? It isn’t Britain, it shouldn’t be Britain, it’s the Continental countries who needed a new legal framework to prevent another Adolf getting in. Without it they, or rather their institutions, failed to guarantee what the uman rites package says should be guaranteed. Let them have it then.
There was not one good reason for the monster to be incorporated into the British legal system, and it has to go.
Disconcerting to see a fine gentleman addressing pond life as though it is sentient, no matter the merit of the address.
Shinto is an evolved religion that has to do with the veneration of ancestors and continuity, but bears no comparison with Nazism or Fascism which are political ideologies. Perhaps you meant Bushido, but even that is a creed of warrior values rather than a political ideology, which also drew on elements of Shinto. Japanese militarism as it arose in the 20th Century is difficult to pigeon hole within a political context but it exploited both Shinto and Bushido as central to coercing conformity.
More influential in the rise of Japanese militarism was the Gunjin Chokyu, the Imperial Rescript for Servicemen, issued by the Emperor Meiji in 1882. This harsh code actually deterred the military from involvement in politics but the military infrastructure nevertheless evolved into a sort of political entity comparable to South American military dictatorships. It was almost a modernisation of the Shogunate where the Emperor, ostensibly a supreme power, was in fact a figurehead through which in practice military power was exercised. The essence of the code can be gleaned from its admonition that “Duty is as heavy as a mountain, but death is as light as a feather”. It’s power in society can be gauged from the fact that the civil police were subordinate to the military police, the notorious kempeitai.
‘Shin’ means gods, mind or soul and ‘to’ means a journey, path and/or teachings. ‘Bushido’ means approximately the chivalric path of the warrior, popularised as the ‘way of the warrior’.
We have Diversity Officers, instead of Community Organisers, but the the result is the same: civil discontent:
Is ACORN behind violent unrest in Ferguson?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/10/is_acorn_behind_violent_unrest_in_ferguson.html
Phew! Golly! That was a close one! We almost listened to the “call to arms” by NATO and expat Russian anti-Putinistas and had a go at Russia over the Malaysian airliner downed by rocketry earlier this year over Ukraine.
But fruitcakes and loonies in Der Spiegel and German intelligence have now come up with a wacky theory:
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/remember-flight-mh-17-german-intilligence-concludes-missile-was-ukrainian-not-russian/
1.Syrian chemicals used against the Syrian people not by Assad but rebels supported by NATO.
2. Ukrainian missiles not Russian missiles used to shoot down a commercial airliner
3. …..
In the America game of rounders there’s a rule: 3 strikes and you’re out. The
government is armed and dangerous; let’s not give them a third chance to take us into war against our national interests.
Colonel Mustard @ 23:15
Impressive, Colonel, and right in every respect. The barbarian included Shinto and Japan as an afterthought (to round up the Axis powers) as he scanned the rant before pushing the submit button.
It was, as you point out, a mistake to couple Nazism with the religious creed of Shinto, which predates Buddhism in Japan, is still going strong there. What is true, however, is that after Meiji Shinto was no longer just a religious cult of ceremonies venerating kami (Gods). It mutated after 1868, and had been used as a conduit for blatant nationalism, hence the separation of powers the Americans insisted on in 1946, no more divinity for the Emperor and stuff. You agree?
Your knowledge of things Japanese comes from a professional role, or you are just interested in the culture?
Malfleur @ 00:40
It’s a neat way out for the West, but it sounds rather unconvincing. What is more telling is that no Western MSM scribbler, no analyst, no politician, no nobody, not even the bafoon Kerry says anything about the downing of the plane, it is as if it didn’t happen. It must be awful for those who lost their loved ones in the tragic incident, no closure for them, as the Yanks say.
And another thing, Malfleur. As you point out it was a close call indeed what with the Ukrainian chap Poroshenko knowing it was Putin 20 minutes after the story broke on the web, the messiah followed with an almost identical certainty of the culprits within a couple of hours.
Today’s evening news here about the shooting in Canada this morning, hours after it happened: every channel at pains stressing it’s too early to say who the penetrators may have been.
Frank P @ 19:02
This is one of the pleasures making Baron’s life more bearable.
Baron
Andrew Dismore encapsulates the problem
*
However, another emerging theme was that the act had been principally seen only as a path to legal disputes: “[Local authorities] are beaten around the head quite substantially by solicitors who seek to challenge virtually every decision we make,” said one senior official from a local authority asylum service. “That … is a negative side to human rights – you get into a very defensive position in terms of trying to justify your own decisions rather than looking at how you can use human rights to improve [services].”
*
Creepy Lawyers abuse the Act
We indeed need a sensible debate about what is and what is not a reasonable use but to contemplate a ECHR withdrawal sends a bad message to all the torture regimes
And talking of pond life
This site is facing the greatest danger in 2 years
Metroid Prime 2 is pernicious
All we can hope is that it re flounces or crawls back under its stone
Islamists (for the time being) appear content to tolerate the doings of useful idiots who help to further their ambitions.
Consequently, both they and their minor useful idiot Telemachus (the latter especially so in light of the pernicious insinuation in his October 22 @ 18:56 posting) must be experiencing copnsiderable satisfaction over this –
http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.ca/
“We do not yet know that these are not right wing extremists”
We do now.
Baron, I do agree but I have a critical view of America’s role in the roots of the Pacific War too.
And to your question both.
Baron @ 02:02
‘Creepy Lawyers abusing the Act?’ Well, telemachus, yet another powerful reason to get rid of it, there’ll be less left for the cunning lot to abuse. .
And as far as a bad message to torture regimes goes, you’ve got to grow up. Since when did a piece of paper, ant piece of paper with writing on it have any bearing on the behaviour of thugs? Can you think of just one example?
Baron – October 15th, 19:03
Here’s the article:
Why drought in Somalia is not our problem
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/why-drought-in-somalia-is-not-our-problem-26751385.html
I needed to link to it in another post, elsewhere.
Any politician who attempts to justify legislation by deploying that tired cliché that it “sends a message” is a fool. When it comes to criminal intent might as well put that message in a bottle and throw it in the sea. Meanwhile the generally law-abiding are inconvenienced and imposed upon.
The “message” I’d like to deliver to those politicians is that they are not there to control us, or to “lead” us, or even to nudge us, but to represent us. And it is about time they bloody started.
I see the Canadian Government is using the line that the killer is not necessarily linked to Islamic violence.
telemachus 23rd, – 04:10
“All we can hope is…”
Whom do you include in that ‘we’?
Ostrich
“Whom do you include in that ‘we’?”
Quite right Ostrich. It’s Common Purpose attempting to lead beyond authority. Again.
Or the voices in the comrade’s head, all talking to him at once.
Sun-news (Canada) honours Cpl.Natan Cirillo of the Argyll and Sutherland Highanders of Canada,shot yesterday.
Canada has more sense of tradition then the British government that abolishes the traditional regiments then comes up with amorphous titles like the Royal Regiment of Scotland.Is it any wonder the UK is breaking-down.
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2014/10/20141022-165500.html
Always a difficult decision whether to re-flounce or crawl back under a stone or even exit stage right, pursued by a bear. Probably just stay and occasionally refute the telebot-tripe or wax lyrical about the arcane instead.
Re the HRA
It is bad law because it fails to take account of the responsibility that goes with a human right.
Aslo it fails to recognise that often, a right for person A is an imposition on person B So human rights can never be absolute.
“Muslim convert who shot dead Canadian soldier is the privately-educated son of country’s immigration chief and has links to Syrian terrorist claims friend from mosque” (Daily Mail)
So the parole board have decided to release Harry Roberts?
All three of the murdered policemen were friends of mine. I attended the crime scene before the bodies were removed. I would like to speak to idiots who have decided that ‘justice’ is best served by releasing Roberts. I still have these images in my mind and would like to graphically describe that experience to the bleeding hearts brigade who wish to bolster their own sense of worthiness. I would like to ask them why they think that pissing on the graves of all murdered police officers and riding roughshod over the sensitivities of the surviving relatives of the victims serves anything other than unjustified and destructive ‘compassion’ from a safe distance. Idealistic insanity!
Enough is enough.
Cameron must close our borders.
Cameron must bring forward plans to deal with the fifth clumn before Ottawa happens here.
If he will not he must dissove Parliament now and let Farage in to do it.
The reason he should remain in stir until his own death is quite simple: pour encourager les autres! And since when can a Home secretary duck-shove responsibility for this decision?
Frank P
October 23rd, 2014 – 14:22
Frank, I agree. But what can we expect? I guess Cameron is just a younger version of Lord Leon Brittan, William Hague and the rest of the perverts. Miliband is no better, they are all tarred wit the same brush. Fiona Woolf is a Fag Hag and so is Theresa May, so that’s what we get. I ardently wish they would all get eliminated from this world by the creatures they crawl to. If the Houses of Parliament were blown up with all the politicians in it, the only tragedy would be the loss of an interesting piece of architecture. Guy Fawkes is sadly needed.
“Author Kate Kray, who interviewed Roberts for her book Natural Born Killers (1999, ISBN 1857823826), said that he has no remorse for his victims and recreates the murders in art and pastry decorations, making apple pies and decorating them with pastry cut-outs of policemen being shot. Kray said that he also produces “precisely drawn and coloured” paintings depicting someone shooting a policeman.”
One of the more unpleasant manifestations of “modern” British culture is the way that the old meme of “crime doesn’t pay” and the Dixon of Dock Green image have been replaced with entertainment media that celebrates and makes heroes of violent criminals, both in the UK and USA.
RobertC @ 10:25
That, Robert, must be the same guy who penned the other critique of the Aid to Africa programme. He’s right here, too, except for what he suggests we do. We could do something to right the decades of an idiotic policy towards Africa that has done more damage to the Continent than the centuries of colonisation.
We could argue that local governance has failed, the unwashed would benefit from an input of State management from without, take over until every country has bred a sufficiently large layer of people with a noticeable stake in the society ensuring stability, prudent economic management, the rule of law, peaceful power succession.
Colonel Mustard
October 23rd, 2014 – 15:21
Interesting name for a crime writer. Is Kate Kray related to the Kray twins?
Are you aware Roberts used to work on a farm on his day release days? And how he behaved when he was more or less a free man? Read the link to the end, and weep.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11181646/Notorious-police-killer-to-be-released.html
Baron
October 23rd, 2014 – 17:58
Baron, in theory I agree with you. Africa is a basket case and needs strong and rigid guidance and control. BUT, who will give this leadership? Europe hasn’t done so well, two major world wars, mass murders, cruelty at a dreadful level and the ever present possibility that it can all flare up again.
Frank P @ 14:22
That’s what a society gets when it scraps capital punishment. The most abhorrent villains get lodgings and sustenance paid for by the taxpayers, after a while get to ‘rejoin’ the community on day releases, and in the end are fully released to die in the comfort of their home.
The deal, when capital punishment got removed from the statute books, was that those who would have hanged will get full life, will die inside, no release. It would be of great interest to the barbarian to know how many of the 30 plus lifers are actually going to die die in prison. Baron’s guess is even fewer now that the uman rites legislation applies.
Anne Wotana Kaye 1 @ 18:12
Fine with Baron of old age, Anne, let’s just wait until the Mandarin speakers get richer, take over, sort things out.
Baron – Re cultural tour. You are taking your life in your hands coming to the Capital these days, but the last redoubt of civilisation is Smithfield Meat Market and some of the nearby hostelries, such as the Bishop’s Finger.
Vlad’s getting cocky all of a sudden, he should keep in mind it’s the Americans who call the tune, the French will dance to it.
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20141023/194501974/Kremlin-Threatens-to-Sue-France-Over-Possible-Mistral-Contract.html
This man seems to be an American version of Pat Condell. –
http://www.youtube.com/embed/aYu_bHu6sUc?feature=player_embedded
Malfleur at 00-40
Said so in the first place:that Malayian flight MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile captured from a Kievian-forces base by the rebel Don Cossacks:they thinking the target was a Kievian supply plane. This was reported by Richard North and by Breitbart at the time.As North says;`we called it right`.
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85262
Baron, @18:14
I wonder how long Myra Hindley would have lasted had she been released? Who is supposed to protect this “Harry Roberts” after he is released? The Police?
Nick Clegg made some particularly insensitive comments on an LBC phone in program this morning. He is a total shit.
According to Judge Andrew Napolitano the soldiers guarding the Canadian parliament building were armed only with “ceremonial” guns. They had no defence against the gunman. You couldn’t make it up!
http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/10/23/judge-napolitano-canada-terror-attack-best-deterrent-lone-wolf-attackers-armed-citizenry
This makes me wonder if the Guards standing outside Buck House, protecting HMQ, have real guns loaded with real bullets.
Baron, October 23rd, 2014 – 18:23
“Vlad’s getting cocky all of a sudden…”
http://alexanderboot.com/content/walk-through-psychiatric-wards-england-and-elsewhere
I think that you will find “Ward 3” of interest here.
@20:44 … I meant Canadian War Memorial Cenotaph
A non-technical summary of what is wrong with the proposed Hinkley Point power station:
Nuclear power? Yes please. But not this…
http://www.climate-resistance.org/2014/10/nuclear-power-yes-please-but-not-this.html#comments
Mark Steyn in full flow (and right):
An Assault on the Heart of the Canadian State
http://www.steynonline.com/6621/an-assault-on-the-heart-of-the-canadian-state
And an interview with a knowledgable US Senator:
Kinzinger (R-IL): US armored vehicles used by ISIS against Kurds
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3854585725001/kinzinger-us-armored-vehicles-used-by-isis-against-kurds/#sp=show-clips
EC @ 20:32 & 20.49
Fear not, EC, the man qualifies for full anonymity, a name change, safe address, an alarm button linked with the nearest police station … Robert’s lawyers will make sure of it.
Baron has read it, entertaining, yes, but his saying our House never passes anything past moderate? Hmmm. Baron can think of many statutes that go easily far beyond ward 2.
This a clip of the gunman caught on camera:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3855439037001/elizabeth-penas-cause-of-death-revealed/?playlist_id=930909813001#sp=show-clips
RobertC @ 21:41
The young Republican isn’t in the White House, the messiah is, Robert. Our response under his leadership will be more of the yup, yup, yup sort than a hard hit, then they’ll think of something that will be at least a nuisance to us rather than a real deterrent for the thugs do to something similar.
Andy Car Park @ 18:20
It’s Southall, and an eatery called Gifto for the barbarian, Andy, when his body conditions allow. Sadly, they haven’t allowed for many a week, now.
Radford NG
October 23rd, 2014 – 18:25
Yes, and we still wait patiently for the transcripts of the exchanges with Kiev air traffic control…
*****
On Mr. Kevin Vickers – there is nothing necessarily anachronistic about ceremonial clothing. Irresponsible and politically incorrect as it may sound, I would favour a gun and a wig for John Bercow.
EBOLA CRISIS IN USA BEING SPREAD AND COVERED UP BY US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Alex Jones is broadcasting confirmed reports that cases of ebola are being covered up in the USA. Medical doctors are telling him that major hospitals are being told to characterise cases of ebola as malaria.
Federal agents are removing the patients from the hospitals to unknown destinations.
Federal government is threatening doctors if they talk.
A doctor, who had been threatened, appears on the show of 23 October.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXuWZzWDY44
Baron, is this ranting?
Gentlemen, I think we have a situation here.
Malfleur
In other jurisdictions scaremongering is a serious offence
*
Creating fear that could cause public panic and economic damage to Phuket was a criminal offence, and police would find the scaremongers and prosecute them, Mr Tree said on Friday. The leaflets warned Phuket residents to leave the resort town before next Saturday because the island would be hit by such a severe natural disaster that it would sink into the sea. Two versions of the leaflets were distributed widely across the island. One contained what was claimed to be a prophecy of Kuan Yin, the Chinese goddess of mercy and compassion. The other supposedly contained warnings from Thao Thep Kasattri and Thao…
Malfleur – 01:22
Your last point is ambiguous.
Is this what you meant by renegotiation Mr Cameron?
“The UK has been told it must pay an extra £1.7bn (€2.1bn) towards the European Union’s budget because the economy has performed better than expected in recent years.”
This is gift for Mr Farage.
Andy Car Park @ 18:20
This morning, Baron had to google Bishop’s Finger, your ‘disturbing’ posting bothered him before he fell asleep, only to discover it still IS a famous old pub frequented by the indigenous folk, and not as the barbarian thought yet another part of London taken over by the newcomers. It is right, Andy, is it? Your suggestion of ‘the last redoubt of civilisation’ was straight, not ironic because not that long ago, a TV programme talked about a ‘regeneration” of the area?
Malfleur @ 03:14
Two hours, eighteen minutes and three seconds of lucidity, calm and wisdom as opposed to removing some rubbish from the garden left by a fallen tree followed by a cup of brew. The garden job won, Malfleur.
Surprise me, Baron. Rubbish out, rubbish in.
EC – 09:45 ‘Nigel’s gift’
I do think CMD is a teansy weansey bit cross. Bad PR, don’t you know!
He must realise that EVERYONE ELSE must have seen it coming, even if they didn’t know when!
And, as has been pointed out by Daniel Hannan (and is where he is Mr Useful!), when is an agreement not an agreement? Remember, this DH’s (Con) own words:
“Shall I tell you the worst thing about the EU? It’s not the waste or the corruption or the Michelin-starred lifestyles of its leaders. It’s not the contempt for voters or the readiness to swat referendum results aside. It’s not the way that multi-nationals and NGOs and all manner of corporate interests are privileged over consumers. It’s not the pettifogging rules that plague small employers. It’s not the Common Agricultural Policy or the Common Fisheries Policy. It’s not the anti-Britishness or the anti-Americanism. It’s not even the way in which the euro is inflicting preventable poverty on tens of millions of southern Europeans.
No, it’s something more objectionable than any of these things – and something which, bizarrely, doesn’t exercise us nearly as much as it should. Put simply, it’s this: the EU makes up the rules as it goes along.
Just think, for a moment, about what that means. It means that any deal you’ve signed can be arbitrarily altered later. It means that any plans you’ve made, on the basis of what you took to be binding agreements, can be retrospectively destroyed. It means, in short, that there is no effective rule of law.
Consider one current example: a breach of the law so flagrant, so brazen, that it ought to stir a free people to revolt – and yet which has received only the paltriest attention.
When the European Constitution Lisbon Treaty was negotiated, Britain secured an opt-out from elements of it, notably the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights. This opt-out was no token. It was repeatedly described by ministers as a “red line”: an issue on which, in other words, they must get their way if they were to sign up to the treaty at all. The opt-out was brandished as a major victory for the Labour government. Indeed, the PM cited it in Parliament as a reason not to concede the public vote he had earlier promised.
Here is Tony Blair at the Despatch Box on 25 June, 2007:
It is absolutely clear that we have an opt-out from both the charter and judicial and home affairs. Those were the reasons why people like the right hon. Gentleman were saying that they wanted a referendum.
Pretty unequivocal, no? The EU’s human rights code would not be justiciable in the UK. Euro-judges wouldn’t be able to impose it on us.
It didn’t take long for Brussels to go back on the deal. In a series of rulings, the European Court of Justice drew explicitly on the Charter to force its decisions on Britain. Some of these decisions had vast consequences. For example, the ECJ cited the Charter when it banned cheaper car insurance for women (and cheaper annuities for men) on grounds of gender discrimination.
Many British judges go along with the EU’s judicial activism, partly out of Euro-enthusiasm and partly because they like it when politicians are dictated to by the Bench. But the blatancy of this latest power-grab is too much for some. When a lawyer acting for a failed asylum seeker referred to the Charter in a bid to reverse a deportation order earlier this month, the presiding judge, Mr Justice Mostyn, was understandably flabbergasted:
I was surprised, to say the least, as I was sure the British government had secured an opt-out at the negotiations of the Lisbon Treaty. To my mind, it is absolutely clear that the contracting parties agreed that the Charter did not create one single further justiciable right in our domestic court. The constitutional significance of this can hardly be overstated.
We’re dealing with a fundamental difference in attitudes to the rule of law. The EU has always been ready to subordinate the dots and commas of the rules to political imperatives.
To cite only the most recent example, the euro-zone bailouts were patently illegal. Article 125 of the EU Treaty is unequivocal: “The Union shall not be liable for, or assume the commitments of, central governments, regional, local or other public authorities, other bodies governed by public law, or public undertakings of any Member State.” This clause was no mere technicality. It was on the basis of its promise that the Germans agreed to abandon the Deutschmark in the first place. As Angela Merkel put it: “We have a Treaty under which there is no possibility of paying to bail out states.”
Yet, as soon as it became clear that the euro wouldn’t survive without cash transfusions, the treaties were set aside. Christine Lagarde, then the French finance minister and now the director of the International Monetary Fund, boasted about what had happened: “We violated all the rules because we wanted to close ranks and really rescue the euro zone. The Treaty of Lisbon was very straightforward. No bailouts.”
How can we deal with a body that is not just open about, but proud of, its readiness to bend the rules? How could a deal negotiated by David Cameron, or any other British leader, be expected to stand as long as we were subject to the arbitrary whim of the ECJ? No new relationship with the EU will be worth the paper it’s written on unless it tackles the jurisdictional question.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100248388/the-single-most-objectionable-thing-about-the-eu-in-a-crowded-field/
The answer is “When it is with the EU”. 🙂 🙂 🙂
No, nothing to do with islam, but:
Man who attacked NY police with an axe had ‘Islamic extremist leanings’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11184880/Man-with-Islamic-extremist-leanings-attacks-NY-police.html
🙂 🙂 🙂
RobertC – 12:57 ‘When is an agreement not an agreement?’
The reason I wrote that post was because the Guardian reported this:
Britain will have to pay extra €2.1bn into EU budget by December
“The commission told the various countries of the revamped figures on 17 October, EU officials said. They said the British had until 1 December to provide €2.1bn, roughly a fifth of the UK’s annual net contribution to the EU.
The demand for the money is political dynamite for a prime minister wrestling with dilemmas over Britain’s future in Europe and broadly seen to be making increasingly Eurosceptic gestures to the restless backbenchers who want to deal with Nigel Farage’s Europe rejectionists.
“The timing is far from ideal,” said Patrizio Fiorilli, spokesman for the EU budget commissioner. “But there are rules we have to follow.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/23/uk-european-commission-eu-budget-contribution
Yes, “But there are rules we have to follow.” 🙂 🙂 🙂 (Ve have vays of changing the rules.)
When is an agreement not an agreement? When it is with the EU.
And the converse appears to be true as well!
Baron, Your memory serves. Smithfield Markets were indeed recently saved from the developers (try later if the link doesn’t work).
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2014/07/09/smithfield-market-is-saved/
There is a caff under the Meat Market, which used to have two signs on the entrance doors: ‘Smoking Permitted’ and ‘We Do Not Accept Euros’.
The Markets themselves are not to be confused with Clerkenwell, home to Chris Huhne and other such riffraff.
Hope your health improves soon.
http://www.rollonfriday.com/TheNews/EuropeNews/tabid/58/Id/3616/fromTab/36/currentIndex/6/Default.aspx
Judge Barney. He takes no blarney.
Nigel Farage :`It’s not often I have a lot to thank EU Commission President for,but Barroso has been on a bit of a roll this week.`
Douglas Carswell : Journalist asks me what I’d do if I were David Cameron presented with £1.75Bn bill by Brussels. “Join UKIP.”
I don’t want to hear this bill is not going to be paid by the deadline, I want to hear it’s not going to be paid at all.
I listened to the Cameron press conference live, and every word that Cameron spoke was a lie or deception.
I will not pay this bill on the 1st December
We will not pay 2 billion euros
It doesn’t matter how much earlier the Treasury knew about this bill
I will do everything that is possible
etc etc
Moderator
He was not lying
He believed everything he said
The sadness is not a deceit
But a failure of the ability to deliver
*
But then neither can Farage
Either now or after next May
*
It is when you come to real issues like this that you realise how vapid Farage actually is
“Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink while thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field — that, of course, they are many in number or that, after all, they are other than the little, shrivelled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome insects of the hour.”
Burke
” . . . the decades long struggle of the viciously emotional and unprincipled leftist ‘revolutionaries’ against honourable, reserved, conservative Britons who don’t realise the nature of the fight – or probably even that they are in one. For the Left it really is a visceral power struggle, one that they would sell their grand-mothers to win. The danger is, that since the 1970s they have learnt to mask the nature of their beast, have rejected their fractious ways and now appear wholly ‘reasonable’ like Ed Miliband and all the other metropolitan power-hungry poseurs. They claim monopolies on fairness, kindness and caring for the planet; they claim to reject the inherent injustices in the establishment, but really only seek to establish their own establishment……one that cares not a jot for the individual. We are living through dangerous times……..Cameron’s incompetence will let Miliband through the gate – and 5-10yrs of him will lead to the abattoir for the ‘great cattle’ beneath the oak tree.”
Jingleballix (October 2012)
Andy Car Park @ 13:20
Thank you, Andy, for the link, too.
RobertC @ 13:17
But pay he must, it’s the rules.
It seems the EU Commission may have timed the announcement to hurt the boy. There was no reason they should have announced it yet. More to the point, there was no reason to make it public anyway, the procedure’s automatic, happens each year (Greece, Italy and the Dutch had also to pay in more, the Germans get a rebate this year).
Baron, it was apparently announced to our Government some days ago, and Treasury staff were actively engaged in the calculations, therefore all the purported anger and shock is entirely an act.
Peter from Maidstone @ 21:11
Quite, Peter, the rebalancing of the member countries contributions is a process that runs on the basis of an agreed formula, Baron’s told, it’s nothing new.
It’s obvious the Commission doesn’t want the boy to be in charge, they probably think with his being in office after 2015, the referendum will go ahead in 2017, they don’t want to risk it. The pink Millepede’s a safer bet, he doesn’t want a referendum, much better option for the Brussels gnomes.
Junkers must have known the releasing of the additional money will hurt the Tories in the next month by-election. It almost guarantees Ukip wins the count.
It will be interesting to see what happens. If Britain doesn’t pay, it will anger every other EU member country, a bad outcome for any re-negotiation as every member country must endorse whatever repatriation of powers Britain wants. If we pay (not that he agrees with it, but Baron reckons we will) would be equally bad for the Tories with the electorate, the boy and his lot has no chance of making it next year.
If you want to amuse yourself at a cost of getting irritated, read and watch this:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/10/24/Eight-more-good-reasons-to-loathe-and-despise-9-11-truther-Russell-Brand
“A few hours later , as the prime minister visited the constituency of Rochester and Strood, Cameron signalled he might be prepared to compromise.
Asked if Britain would eventually pay up, he suggested that a lower sum could be acceptable. “If it is two billion euros, no we are not.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/24/david-cameron-in-dark-eu-bill-2bn-george-osborne
What a surprise !!!!! What competence!!!
I am truly appalled at the competences of those supposed to be running this country. And their pensions will be accumulating!! It is sickening. At least, at Tesco, people were suspended, if not from lampposts, from power!!!
telemachus @ 19:31
You wrong in one respect, telemachus. One can indeed not predict the future. There is every chance that if Farage does hold a balance of power after 2015, sticks to his guns to quit the Brussels EUSSR, anti-EU forces in other member countries will join the fight, the monstrosity will morph into what it initially was – a trading block perhaps with few bells and whistles attached to appease the deluded Europhiles.
Not many saw the implosion of the Soviet Empire coming, not many see the possibility of the EUSSR imploding either, but as the former collapsed so may the latter. The enmity towards the imposed experimental construct runs deeper than the British Ukip, it’s just the MSM lackeys are not telling us about it.
Lynton Crosby manufactures a story to make diddly davie look brave before the Rochester bye bye election.
Cost? £1.7 billion.
Colonel Mustard @ 20:25
A thoughtful posting, Colonel, and beautifully articulated, too, except it’s a teeny bit too pessimistic for the barbarian, who continues to cling to his theory of the ‘healthy core of Englishness’ which, whilst dormant so far, and perhaps not even realising it’s in a fight with the unprincipled Left, it will one day wake up and be heard. Judge Barney in Andy’s link @ 13.26 represents one of the bricks the core’s made of, and other examples there are, too.
Last year, the local Tesco suffered from pilfering by school kids. who came in in large numbers, created havoc, helped themselves to sweets and whatever. The Tesco management called in the police, teachers (parents were involved as well), and a new policy was worked out. Only three kids could enter jointly, the rest must wait in front of the store, they all have to have a clean card (a card has a photo of the kid, if the kid gets caught stealing the card’s endorsed, the endorsement stays for a year). This year, not much of any loss of merchandise by school kids.
The interesting bit though is this. The policy wasn’t worked out by any State apparatchik, it was ‘put in on the quiet’ (it wasn’t in our local paper), very likely because it’s not 100% PC kosher, but it’s running because it’s based on a common sense approach to a community problem, and it shapes the kids’ code of behaviour. Baron knows about it because he observed it, asked one of the staff to explain.
So George didn’t tell Dave about the large bill! 🙂 🙂 🙂
George Osborne failed to tell David Cameron about EU bill
The Chancellor did not inform the Prime Minister about an ‘appalling’ £1.7 billion bill levied by the European Union despite knowing about it for days
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11186866/George-Osborne-failed-to-tell-David-Cameron-about-EU-bill.html
As a poster in the Guardian wrote, “People these days don’t talk to their neighbours like they used to”, though I think we would have to go back before 1997, and even then one would have to put some effort in to pick a good example.
RobertC @ 00:06
Osborne didn’t tel the boy because there was no reason he should. It nothing new, the formula has been agreed years ago. The boy got stroppy because Brussels, or rather the new man Junkers made it big news, a payback for the boy’s reluctance to back him, perhaps, Baron reckons.
RobertC
October 24th, 2014 – 12:57 and 13.17
The article by Daniel Hannan is shocking because if consolidates what one had half-known, half-suspected.
Your question “When is an agreement not an agreement” is important because it foreshadows the next question: “What are the consequences of a broken treaty?”. Perhaps someone could do the research. Could it be that the Treaty of Lisbon is now null and void? Unfortunately we do not have any political force yet ready, willing and capable of calling Brussels out on that one.
I would like to add though that for those looking for the hand of the shadowy globalist oligarchy in policy and events, which pulls our noses in public with increasing frequency, there is a compelling equivalent to Brussels’ approach to the treaty of Lisbon in the treatment of the Affordable Care Act by that man in the White House. As the Speaker of the House of representatives told the people of the United States when the legislation was being considered, and probably with more truth than she knew at the time, ““…we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it…”.
I say more truth than she knew because even if you had read Obamacare after the Act became law, you still couldn’t be sure what was in it. This is because the executive branch, in the person of Obama and his pen, has used unconstitutional means to encroach on the powers of both the judicial and legislative branches of the US government to interpret the law and purportedly to change it as and when he and his fellow gangsters thought it meet.
Welcome to the unfolding of the new Shigalevism.
The one argument that might persuade me of the reasonability of the NATO-inspired putsch in Kiev earlier this year is that it was aimed to disrupt or to lead to the disruption of the developing alliance between Russia and Germany.
telemachus
October 24th,@ 08:01
If I understand you, the politically correct approach to news of the spread of a deadly contagious and probably infectious disease caused and perpetuated by central government misfeasance is to gag the press and the medical profession and to “disappear” Latin American style any hospital patients with that disease.
The purpose of the approach, if I understand you, would be to avoid panic among the telemachi which is to say, putting it metaphorically, among that large section of any given population that would prefer to sweep up rubbish and have a nice cup of tea rather than know what is going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud2sO8W5JqM
This shower of a government has complete contempt for our intelligence. They have always known what the EU formula is. The phoney surprise and anger are an act, on the one hand enough bluster may cover some of it up and allow the moron to pay up quietly later on; on the other trying to make Cameron the clown look tough. It is beyond insulting to the electorate. To say that Osborne didn’t tell Cameron is incredible, haven’t they always bragged that unlike labour the PM and Chancellor talk to each other. That they appear not to have done looks like incompetence; Liars! More labour liars waiting in the wings to win the next election – despair.
The EU payment demand:this is what we get when people,not just at the spectator,believe the economic figures being given by George Osborne (of which Ed. Balls and Chris Leslie have failed to make a critical analysis ).These figures (used by the EU)come from the Treasury;and they include projected figures for the `black-economy`:theft,fraud,drugs and prostitution.It isn’t known whether this includes the four-million cases of rape(work out the figures)committed against young white working-class girls prostituted by Mirpurie gangs,including kebabe shop and taxi driving workers.
UKIP bi-election campaign for South Yorks. Crime Commissioner:below-
https://pic.twitter.com/a4WLa0mnUy
DT headline: British driver killed by US air strike in Syria
I thought they used laser guidance, to an accuracy of a couple of feet.
A Bengali Muslim has attacked a 12 year old girl in her home in Bethnal Green. He posed as a plumber. Gained entry and assaulted her….
http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/crime-court/police_issue_cctv_of_man_after_sex_attack_on_schoolgirl_in_bethnal_green_1_3819725
A fourth Muslim from Portsmouth has been killed while fighting for ISIS in Syria. A friend who knew him says…
Mehdi Hassan was a polite well mannered boy and always spoke to elders with respect. He had a good family upbringing. It’s a shame, he would have been a valuable member to Portsmouth society.
Sorry to hear that Jack Bruce has died.
Jack Bruce Death Hoax: Is He Still Among Us?
“ There are just too many unanswered questions, too many coincidences, too many things just don’t make sense, ” a fan told the media.
Overzealous fans started investigating the strange and conflicting circumstances surrounding the ‘death’ of Jack Bruce, offering ‘incontestable evidence’ that the musician was still alive. More than 2 millions people have clicked on the popular YouTube video ‘Jack Bruce alive?! Shocking proof’ and nearly 30,000 people have commented on.
A wide array of the musician’s fans are convinced the video proves conclusively that Jack Bruce is still alive.
However Ginger (remember the violence) has spoken
*
Baker said this evening: “A very sad day. Goodbye my friend.”
This day is called the feast of Crispian…..
And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember’d.
We few,we happy few,we band of brothers…
Agincourt;25 Oct. 1415.
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/shakespeare/william/henryv/act4html#act4.3
Correction.
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/shakespeare/william/henryv/act4.html#4.3
Also on 25 Oct.
Death of King Stephen ;1154 (860 years ago).
Charge of the Light Brigade ;1854 (160 years ago).
Trumpeter Landfrey of the Light Brigade sounds The Charge with a trumpet used at Waterloo. [Edison cylinder]
https://archive.org/details/EDIS-SWDPC-01-04
Baron
October 24th, 2014 – 21:53
What is your point here? I have visited the Breitbart link. I agree that Russell Brand is as irritating as James Delingpole suggests.
Delingpole’s main objection to the interview with Brand however appears to be that he raises the possibility that “9/11” was an inside job.
You just invite us to be irritated and to enjoy. Have you actually spent any time engaging with that question?
Did you indeed go through the comments appended to the link?
If so, did you arrive at Gordon Ranger’s response to Jimmy R which begins with the question “Which is easier to manipulate, people’s behaviour or the laws of physics?” and then goes on to provide a video which can be found right there in the comment or at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGCWBDFZ5Zs
What was your point in inviting Wallsters to the Breitbart link? Was it to consider the scientific evidence in Gordon Ranger’s comment which you did not mention or was it simply to scoff at the scoff-at-able Russell Brand and by extension at the possibility that there could be more to 9/11 than is encountered in the official story?
What is your point?
Not a bad headline for UKIP in the Guardian:
Nearly a third of voters prepared to support Ukip
Observer/Opinium poll shows 31% of voters would back Nigel Farage’s party if they believed it could win in their constituency
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/25/nearly-third-of-voters-prepared-to-support-ukip
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/frontpagemag-com/geert-wilders-on-the-wests-battle-for-freedom-on-the-glazov-gang/
Now we know who the enemy are.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/10/amid-jihad-murders-in-canada-usa-today-says-christian-religious-extremism-is-primary-threat-to-homeland-security?utm_source=Jihad+Watch+Daily+Digest&utm_campaign=0731bd6b72-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ffcbf57bbb-0731bd6b72-123513049
RobertC 25th, – 15:17
“I thought they used laser guidance, to an accuracy of a couple of feet.”
They do, so assuming what he was driving was the target, it worked pretty well! 🙂
Peter from Maidstone October 25th, 2014 – 16:42
“Mehdi Hassan was a polite well mannered boy and always spoke to elders with respect. He had a good family upbringing. It’s a shame, he would have been a valuable member to Portsmouth society.”
Can anyone think of anything good or beneficial that the Muslims have brought to our society?
I have a problem, every time that I click on and then open a PDF file (I have dozens) the file opens as our club newsletter for August 2014.
Anyone with an idea of how I can fix this?
Crispin and Crispian are remembered in Faversham, Kent. They seem to have been early Christians fleeing persecution in the East who made their way to Britannia.
An interesting summary of the History of the Elgin Marbles:
Amal Clooney should back off. Lord Elgin was a hero who saved the marbles for the world
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/dominicselwood/100289580/the-clooneys-should-back-off-lord-elgin-was-a-hero-who-saved-the-marbles-for-the-world/
O(o) – 10:01 ‘British driver killed by US air strike in Syria’
My puzzlement was how an air strike in Syria could kill a driver in Britain, even a US air strike?
The Green Blob exists and has been exposed:
EXPOSED: How a shadowy network funded by foreign millions is making our household energy bills soar – for a low-carbon Britain
* Shadowy pro-green lobbyists working at every level of the Establishment
* Organisations are channelling tens of millions of pounds into green policies
* Elite lobby group linked to Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and the WWF
* Current energy policies shaped by the Green Blob will cost up to £400billion
* If continued, there will be further eye-watering energy bill rises for Britons
“We, [The Mail on Sunday], have found that innocuous-sounding bodies such as the Dutch National Postcode Lottery, the American William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and the Swiss Oak Foundation are channelling tens of millions of pounds each year to climate change lobbyists in Britain, including Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth.
They have publicly congratulated themselves on their ability to create green Government policy in the UK – most notably after Ed Miliband steered through aggressive CO2 reduction targets in his 2008 Climate Change Act, and announced there would be no more coal power stations.
Yet the consequences of their continuing success are certain: further eye-watering rises in energy costs for millions of Britons and an increasing risk of blackouts.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2807849/EXPOSED-shadowy-network-funded-foreign-millions-making-household-energy-bills-soar-low-carbon-Britain.html
Vote UKIP! It’s the only party that will flush out these traitors: the LibLabConGreens
A subversive organisation:
“Dutch Postcode Lottery Factsheet
Since 1989, the Dutch Postcode Lottery has been raising funds to support organisations working for a fairer, greener world. Fifty percent of its income goes to charity. The lottery has grown to become the Netherlands’ biggest charity lottery and supports 90 nongovernmental organizations. Since its founding, the lottery has dispensed over 4 billion euros to its beneficiaries.”
http://www.postcodeloterij.nl/organisatie/perscentrum/factsheet-english.htm
Malfleur @ 23:30
If Baron even mildly suspected the Breirbart link would cause you such pangs of anxiety he wouldn’t have bothered. No sinister motive for the link, Malfleur, except for the amusement value of that human irritant Brand, the way he ranted, the touching, the feet on the table. Inviting him may have been intended to raise the viewability of Newsnight, it turned out pretty pathetic, that’s all.
The link you’ve provided sounds interesting, but it’s beyond Baron’s understanding of physics and whatever else may be involved. If what the guy says is true, there must be tens if not hundreds of people in the know. Why aren’t they telling? (Say), workers making the thermate, shipping it, shipping it, using it. They wouldn’t have known what it was for, but they must have moved it, store it somewhere. What happened to the spraying gear, remnants of the thermate must have been dispose off, where is it, why nobody involved in the disposal came forward?
Just a thought. The planes were full of aviation fuel, and oxygen. What if a chemical reaction never before occurring anywhere took place, produced the same result as the thermate (or thermite) stuff.
Even if one were to buy the narrator’s key take on the tragedy, i.e. that it was all designed to allow our attacking Afghanistan because of the oil pipeline, other natural resources, it turns out it was all for nothing. When the Yanks leave the country it will turn into the same hellhole it was before. Or do you have any evidence the pipeline’s running, will continue to run when the Americans are gone?
Radford NG @ 21:10
The voice of the guy is as interesting as the sound of the trumpet, Radford. The barbarian isn’t a good judge of accents, but the guy’s pronunciation suggests to him the trumpeter had an upper class upbringing. Could this be right?
John birch @ 08:57
Quite, John. The woman’s comparison of the threat from the jihadists and that from Christian fundamentalists is on par to a comparison of the slaughter by Adolf’s institutionalised thugs to that of individual murderers. A big difference there, she may live to regret it.
Isn’t it puzzling the fighting in Eastern Ukraine goes on (albeit with less intensity than before), yet the West doesn’t mind, the messiah doesn’t blame Putin for the violation of the Minsk agreement, no new sanctions, the Western MSM vacuous of anti-Russian drivel ….
Allegedly the best analyst of the region, someone who calls himself Saker, (writes in a language other than English), says a resumption of serious fighting is to start before Christmas, the Kiev’s has been re-arming, tried a ballistic missile, has plenty of NATO’s advisers, volunteers from NATO countries.
A major offensive on the Eastern rebels will come after the new election in Ukraine (they’re voting today), the war is necessary for the Nuland’s protegee (Poroschenko) to survive politically, the aim is to force Putin to keep on supplying gas/oil to both Europe as well as Ukraine, to write off Ukrainian debt, to stick to the promised $17bn in aid for its western neighbour (the promise was made before the Miadan coup).
A war in the winter in that neck of the woods? Hmmm
Cane through brum airport this afternoon, and went to the toilet in the baggage claim area.
There was a sign saying there were multifaith washing facilities elsewhere.
WTF are multi faith washing facilities. Do people of some faiths pee and poo differenly to the rest of us or something.
I actually struggle to to understand why an airport needs a chaplain and a ‘multi faith prayer room’
Alexsandr @17:56 writes..
“WTF are multi faith washing facilities. Do people of some faiths pee and poo differenly to the rest of us or something.”
Yes, they self-evidently do. A hole in the ground/floor with a watering can in the corner of the cubical makes many visitors to our shores feel more at home. Some French, too, also favour these arrangements but they usually manage without the watering can. A confrontation with western style toilets often results in adherents to other faiths squatting on top of the toilet seats and pebble dashing the walls behind them. (this is a feat that the rest of us can only normally manage after twelve pints of Guinness and several bags of salted peanuts)
However, the Saudis can afford these slightly posher versions…
http://www.specwash.com/project-gallery/
The most ironic news story of the week?
>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11187632/Front-National-councillor-urges-French-far-Right-party-to-convert-to-Islam.html
>
Esmerelda Weatherwax reports on an EDL demonstration outside Broadcasting House yesterday (with photographs).
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/57044/Outside-BBC-headquarters-Portland-Place-in-London
Alexsandr,
Holes in the ground, watering cans instead of Isal. Alex old son, this isn’t a piss take is it?
Russell Brand announces he is thinking of standing for Mayor of London, I did not know the moron could think. I know he has a bigger ego than Boris, but does that qualify the tosser for public office?
I seemed to have difficulty in avoiding information about Russell Brand over the weekend. He is interviewed by Lucy Kellaway in the Lunch with the FT column of the Weekend edition of the Financial Times.
The menu said it all: red juice x 2; leek and potato soup x 2; americano x 2.
A Tory cabinet minister has admitted he made a mistake by saying some British communities are being “swamped” by European Union migrants.
True though.